I linked to this story in The Cooler yesterday and really didn't take time to comment as is usually the case in the Cooler. But I spent the better part of yesterday thinking about what happened here so I thought I would post about it today. Although I originally read about the story in the Sun-Sentinel, the wiz kids at the Tribune Company still haven't joined the modern world and figured out embed codes for their videos, unlike NBC Miami. You can see the video in its entirety at the Sun-Sentinel link.
Okay. So a couple things about what happened here.
One, the fact that at any time and at any place in South Florida, any one of us can be confronted with a wacko or someone in a bad mood or having a bad day. Our trip to a gas station or supermarket or drugstore can change our lives forever.
Two, the victim in this video doesn't do anything to defend himself. Nothing. He gets hit and pushed and kicked and doesn't do a thing. Amazing.
Three, the customers do nothing to interrupt this beat down. They scamper out of the way or leave the store. The store clerk calls 911. Bottom line: don't count on your fellow South Floridians to come to your aid if someone starts kicking your ass.
Four, once, just once, I would love to see the following happen and be fully recorded. Tough guy throws a punch. Victim calmly takes one step back, reaches under his shirt and pulls out his 9 mm. What happens next is up to the former tough guy. In most cases, I'm sure the battle would end right there as the former tough guy slinks off and out the door. In a minority of cases, the victim would get an excellent opportunity to apply his practice range shooting skills to a real life scenario. Center mass, anyone? Sort of like "Game Day" in the sports world. I would place my bets on the guy with the lead.
This tape would then be widely distributed to all the TV stations in the area and, hopefully, it would go viral on YouTube so that every Neanderthal muscle head out there has a Forrest Gump moment and realizes that you don't know what you're going to get when you open that box of chocolates.
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38 comments:
Rick, this video made me irrationally angry. Mostly at the people who stood idly by, doing nothing.
What makes me so angry is that "I don't want to get involved" attitude. A few years ago I was at a gas station in a car belonging to my company, clearly marked as such, and the car had a dead battery. I had my own jumper cables and asked others at the gas station if they could assist in jumping my car. NOBODY WOULD. I actually had one person say, "I don't want to get involved."
I fear for society when this is the prevailing attitude.
Wow, I would have loved to have wasted that midget bully. Bunch of creeps just watching that continue on an older man...
Lessons to be learned:
1) When confronted by an idiot, leave the premises. There was nothing between Michael and the door.... Oh yes, his ego.
2) When confronted by an idiot, do not cross your arms. Best place to have them is in what is called "surrender" position (hands open at neck to shoulder level, palms facing out) because it does two things: it shows you do not want a confrontation and you can respond faster to an attack.
3)Leave the Clint Eastwood shit for the movies. A District Attorney can easily make the case that there was no disparity of force and thus, the use of a deadly weapon was not warranted. That nails you with a charge of Assault with a Deadly Weapon just for displaying the gun. He will probably add reckless endangerment because there were other people around. Hell, I am sure some other charges will be thrown just for shit and giggles. Be ready to shed between five to six figures on attorney's fees. Being found Not Guilty is not guaranteed.
Avoidance, Deterrence & De-escalation.
Happy now?
Interesting advice from a blogger who spends a considerable amount of space criticizing another blogger who believes strongly in the second amendment and the right to bear arms.
So I'm enjoying my dinner at Joe's with my wife and some guy at the table next to me starts talking smack and then gets up and walks up to my table. My next move is to stop eating, throw up my hands in a classic surrender gesture, ask for my check, gather my wife and leave? Or let's say I take the family to to the stadium for a Dolphins/Jets football game. Halfway into the 2rd quarter, the guy from NY in the row in front of me turns around and starts angrily complaining about my rooting for the Fins. He then gets up and gets in my face and starts telling me to shut the hell up. My next move is to "surrender," get the kids and wife and immediately head to my car in the parking lot? Or maybe I'm in line to get a beer at the same stadium and some guy comes up, pushes me out and yells at me to get to the back of the line. So that's what I'm supposed to do?
But let's say I don't and the next thing I know the guy has thrown a punch, broken my jaw and is continuing to punch and kick me. The door is right there so at what point do I consider my ego not be an issue and my life to be in serious danger?
Is it my imagination or are you seriously maintaining that that the guy who got beat down in this video had a big ego because he nonviolently held his ground to a violent maniac instead of immediately scampering for the door?
BTW, Miguel, I know you think of yourself in grandiose terms but don't let my desire for your opinion go to your head. You don't have to respond to anything I post here...but I thought that maybe, just maybe, there could be a discussion where perhaps we both learned something. Perhaps you're way too beyond that, but I'll be honest to admit that I'm not.
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Part One:
Rick, that is your Ego talking. "How does he dare I am to leave with the tail between my legs?" I AM A MAN! My Testicles are as big as anybody else!
And yes, you leave. You forget about that expensive dinner of stake & lobster or enjoying the Marlins game (yeah, who does that anyway) and leave because the option might be either eating through a tube, eating prison food or not eating at all.
Ladies and Gentlemen: no truer words have ever been spoken: YOU DO NOT WIN A GUN FIGHT. YOU SURVIVE IT. From Jeff Cooper to Massad Ayoob, all agree on this subject.
If you have to shoot somebody, you better be sure you do so within the established law. That means you must be able to prove that you had a reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm. You have to prove (Oh yes, you do, not the D.A. All those movies & books by Sue Grafton or John Grisham about the government having to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt go out the window in a defensive shooting case) that the attacker had the ABILITY to cause death or grave bodily harm. That the attacker had the OPPORTUNITY to carry out the deadly force attack and the you must prove that your life was really in JEOPARDY. In the video we see Michael with no visible damage to his face, not even a hickie. If he had pulled a gun, he would have a helluva time proving Jeopardy.
Part Two:
Now, let's walk the initial aftermath of a defensive shooting. You pulled the trigger, bad guy goes down and, if you are half smart you will call 911 to report the event. You are under a crapload of stress and adrenalin and the first words that come out of your mouth are "I just shot a motherfucker at the Stop-Rob on Collins Avenue. Send somebody pronto." or words to that effect and perhaps even worse. The operator will ask you if somebody is shot to which you will answer yes (You are a good guy and want to tell the truth) and she will ask you if you have a gun to which you will also respond in the affirmative. The call that goes to the local cop car is that a shooting has occurred at the location, one person is down and the shooter is in the premises. Anybody care to guess what will be the attitude of the cops when they arrive at the Stop & Rob? And if you are still fool enough to have the gun in your hand, you better drop it the millisecond they order you to do so and don't even think about turning around to face them or you will become one with room temperature. No, the cops do not know you are the good guy and that you were unjustly attacked by a criminal. You are just another bloke with a gun pending further investigation.
If you survive the first encounter, be ready to be handcuffed and thrown in the back of a police car while your Miranda Rights are being read. This will piss you off to no end. You are a GOOD GUY! only Bad guys get their Miranda Rights read to. SHUT UP, BREATH DEEP and the SHUT UP till you can control yourself.
Part Three:
In case you haven't noticed, you are now suspected in the murder of another human being. If you are lucky, it will be found MUCH LATER that it was a justifiable homicide.
Next, wait for the Vultures to arrive. Those would be the excellent members of the Media with their shinny lights, cameras and boom mounted microphones trying to get some info out of you in order to make deadline. One thing Boys and Girls, by default the Media will consider you a CRIMINAL until proven otherwise. Get used to the word SUSPECT associated with your name (with the applicative "alleged" to legally cover their asses.)They will harass you for a comment, they will chase your family at home, your neighbors, coworkers, high school chums that you haven't seen in 10 years, etc. Oh, and they will go to the victim's family to get a reaction which will probably be of Mommy telling them that their boy was good christian kid that went to church 7 times a week, was a valedictorian at the local Hair Dressing Academy and helped old ladies cross the street and rescued kittens from trees. The Media will not do a fact check on this matter because they are not in the TRUTH business but in the NEWS business and crying mothers sell rather well at the 6 O'clock time frame.
Next, you will be taken to police HQ for an interview/Interrogation. Hopefully b now you have calmed down enough to be able to sound somewhat coherent and give an initial statement which should be in the form of. "I was attacked by that person, I feared for my life and defended myself. I will sign a complaint against him but also i rather have the time to compose myself and talk to my attorney so I can cooperate fully with your investigation."
Part Four:
If you are lucky enough that the initial investigation comes up aces with evidence and witnesses supporting your claim of self-defense and the D.A. agrees, you might be released on your own pending final disposition. By the way, if you are walking out, say a small thanks to those who fought for the extension of the Castle Doctrine, the vilified "Make My Day" Law which is the reason you are walking out and not learning the basic principles of alternative sexual lifestyles at the Turner Guilford Knight Correctional Center.
After several long hours, you are finally home but, Alas! Not quite free. See, until disposition of the case is reached, you are a hummingbird's breadth away from sporting handcuffs again and being taken to court. That means that for the next 6 to 12 months you should shut the fuck up about what happened. You don't tell your buddies, you don't tell anybody from your bowling league and not even your wife. There are only three people that cannot be compelled to testify about whatever you say about the case: Your Lawyer, your priest or your doctor. Anybody else is off limits.
Next comes the Mark of Cain. You see, you violated one of society's cardinal rules: you took the life of another human being. Be ready to be ostracized by lots of people that will not understand why you did what you did and you cannot tell them your side of the story. Some will be very vocal about their displeasure against you, some will stop seeing you and tell their kids to stop playing with your kids...yes your kids will also suffer because you defended yourself. Ain't life a bitch? And don't be surprised that after several months of this BS, your significant other presents you with divorce papers and leaves with the kiddies: the pressure will be also a bear to her.. "You know Jill? She is married to that murderer that we saw on TV. Shush now, here she comes."
Part Five & final:
Again, if everything goes right, the D.A. will eventually come with a disposition of Justifiable Homicide and you are finally off the hook, legally at least. Again, thank the evil NRA for helping pass the "Make my Day Law" and you are now protected against any lawsuit the relatives of the "Good Christian Boy" you killed wanted to bring on your ass and would probably win.
Now Ladies and gents, the above is a very extreme oversimplification of all the crap that may befall you after a defensive use of a firearm. Trust me when I tell you it can get much much worse. We in the Culture have seen it and that is why we study these cases while trying to learn what to do and what not to do and share them with our fellow members.
So, hell yes I would drop a full family dinner at Joe's Stone Crabs and lose several hundred dollars by leaving when a bully wants to fight me. It ain't worth the shit-storm i would have to face otherwise. You wanna call me a coward? Go ahead. Words don't hurt. Jose Bubba Lavon shivving me in the back while I wait trial for manslaughter will hurt much more.
Sounds to me like Miguel watches entirely too much teevee.
Check out the Harold Fish story. http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8010
So because Miguel is not being a bloodthirsty villain now he is a coward who watches too much TV?
Westerns, I'm sure.
Regrettably he did not concoct that story from TV shows. These words are drawn from the real-life experiences of people who have had the misfortune of being forced to shoot someone in self defense. If you carry, you would be well advised to take them to heart.
But then again, if you have taken a concealed carry class you have heard all of this before.
http://www.shastadefense.com/ArmedCitizenNetwork_2010-9.pdf
If that doesn't make you think twice about pulling a gun during a fight I don't know what does.
Nope... we've been reading the papers and checking the net.
We also have the case of Jay Rodney Lewis
http://www.radioiowa.com/2012/03/07/man-who-shot-in-self-defense-now-cause-celebre-at-statehouse/
But you go ahead and get all Rambo. It is only your ass.
That was a good one that brings out a nice point: If the witnesses are friends with the victim, they will lie and screw you royally.
But we watch way too much teevee, right?
Add to the repertoire Gerald Ung
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Old_City_Shooting_01_17_10 and
http://philadelphiacriminallawnews.com/2011/02/philadelphia-jury-finds-gerald-ung-not-guilty-in-shooting.html
Not sure where you get the "coward" label, Curly. Sure wasn't from me.
Those are some grim stories that you link, although I can't help but detect just enough bias in their presentation that I'd want to hear the other side before drawing any conclusions. I'm fair like that. Sorry.
FWIW, I'm not trained and I don't carry, but had I been the one getting attacked by the putz in the store I simply would have pinched his head off his shoulders and stuffed it in the Slurpie machine. No need for a gun when crunching cockroaches.
But that's neither good teevee nor red meat for the gun lovers. Just another day in the office.
So I watched the video and this one can go a couple of ways. Would I love to see someone pull a gun and stand down the attacker? Yes. But these days right and wrong are lopsided in many ways. Now I'm assuming that this happened in Fl? I'm not going to get into FL law etc. as I am not up to speed on the nuances of FL code so someone can school me on the "stand your ground law" I understand that it still entails the defending party to still be in danger of grievous harm etc. Could the victim in the video articulate that he was in danger? Sure.
It's easy for us to look at the video and point out all the things he did wrong, but I don't blame him for that.
Should he have DE-escalated the situation by leaving, if only temporarily? Probably, but once under attack and attempting to retreat and the attacker pursued him I think drawing a firearm would have been an appropriate response as he was being pursued and unable to flee.
Looking at the video he didn't appear to be getting hit that hard, but being on the receiving end is a lot different. Been there, didn't like it.
The big issue is the "last resort" issue. There were a lot of things that could have got him out of that situation before it came to blows and that is what could cause issues in a similar occurrence.
Kind of reminds me of the old story of the big muscled up guy who came in the ER all beat up. "Man, what happened to you?" asks the doc.
"It's a long story, Doc. About five years ago I was a 98 pound weakling and a 220 pound bully beat me like a drum and stole my girl. So I sent off for this course, and became a 220 pound he man" And that's where he stopped.
"Yeah,man, but how did you get beat up this way?"
"That's easy,Doc. I went to the beach and a 440 pound bully beat me up and stole my girl."
It's not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man. And me? Because I carry, I stop things like that.
And because I care, I jump start people who need it, push stalled vehicles off railroad tracks, and make myself useful to those in need. Because I carry - and if I try to whip that 440 pound bully whipping that 98 pound woman and fail - I still have Betsy.
Stranger
Miguel, Miguel, Miguel...where do I start?
No one called you a coward. I think that was your ego talking to you. Or a way to rile up the troops at your place. Whichever, you got it wrong.
I never said what I would do in this situation. The post was about, in part, what I would have liked to see happen. I'm not sure why you accuse me of acting "butch" over at your place when I wrote nothing to lead you there.
But while we're talking about "acting butch," I do remember a recent post of yours that mentioned how you would paint a suspicious guy with a laser sight if he walked by your residence. And I read all the time how you like to play cop and soldier out at the range. Just sayin'.
Finally, I know it's a lot of work to select your firearms, get a FL CCL and maintain proficiency, so I can't for the life of me figure out why you would spend your time considering what your neighbors are going to think of you if you defend yourself and take care of the guy who is doing all he can to turn your head into jello. Why carry if you're going to have to call a time out from the beat down in order to run through the Rolladex of situations that you've memorized to figure out whether or not the guy who is well on his way to killing or incapacitating you for life is someone worth that +p round you bought last week?
Finally for real this time: I have a policy here at SFDB regarding vulgar language. It's in plain view below the comment box. If you can't follow it, don't bother dropping your comment.
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And that ladies and gents, was a lesson lost.
Ha!
I'm thinking all this guy does is surrender.
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Surrender Position is kinda different from surrender. Your ego took over at "surrender and said "NO! I Shall Never Surrender!"
For us, surrender position has a whole 'nother meaning. I posted a video in the reply section of my blog.
One last piece of advice: If by any chance you ever confront a guy that takes the surrender position and asks you to leave him alone, yet he does not appear to be afraid, do leave him alone.
And with that... I am gone from here.
"One last piece of advice: If by any chance you ever confront a guy that takes the surrender position and asks you to leave him alone, yet he does not appear to be afraid, do leave him alone. "
You mean like the way the guy who got beat down did in the video, Miguel? Yeah, let me make a note of that great advice. Thanks.
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Miguel seems a little full of himself.
Sounds to me like Miguel's story matches the one that was taught me in my CCW class.
You neither carry nor are trained to, but you're still going to tell us what's what on this?
You need to get in for an ego resection before you have trouble making it through doors.
Rick looks like he will only learn the lesson when (God forbid) he gets a chance to play Rambo and finds himself doing a long stretch in the penitentiary.
Several issues here.
Spontaneous violence. Avoidance vs civil order.
Would try and stop the aggressor if I saw one person go 'medieval' on another person? Yeah. Yeah I would. I think it is the decent thing to do.
Would I take a active role in getting the aggressors license plate info? Very much so.
Would I fight back if I was attacked? Oh yeah.
Would I use deadly force? Nope. Not called for. Mace? Oh Hell yes!
Kick him while he is down? Nope.
Give him a second coat? Maybe. (... Yeah ...)
Is this all 20-20 hindsight? Yeah, but it is good to plan and have the tools for non-deadly encounters too.
So, how's the angry rhetoric here changed after the whole Treyvon shooting incident? Are you starting to see the wisdom of Miguel's position? Are you starting to see how bad it can get if you use a gun in self defense?
We carry guns to use only when the alternative to using them is death. Pulling them when you can run away safely leads to self rightous people calling for your head, faux "black liberation" gangs threatening to kidnap you and deliver you to the Feds, and anti-gun groups using your name to fundraise while encouraging mob violence against you.
It is rare that we see a post on a leftist blog so thoroughly discredited so quickly.
Sean may be the only man in America right now that thinks that Treyvon had it coming to him. You da man, white boy!
Way to read the comment, dummy.
The original post asked why the guy in the vid beating the other person up couldn't just get shot. The Treyvon shooting should tell you exactly why.
As for whether or not he had it coming, there will be a grand jury investigation and possibly a trial to determine that. I will leave it in their hands.
In future, read the comments before spouting off with your bigoted assumptions. It makes you look stupid otherwise.
How is it "self defense" when you are the one with the gun chasing after someone?
Sean.....maybe you can explain to me how the Trayvon shooting and a guy getting attacked and beat up in a gas station have any commonality at all.
But since you brought it up, so far the reports indicate that Trayvon was doing just exactly what Miguel advocated, that is, trying to remove himself from a dangerous situation. But just like the guy in this video who threw up his hands in surrender [again, as Miguel ardently supports] just before being pummeled, both victims suffered terribly after following Miguel's instructions.
Miguel is full of wrong advice and himself.
But do what he says, Sean. Tell me how it works out for you.
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It's pretty easy to see the commonality. In the gas station video, Rick from SFD sez "pull out a gun and shoot." In the Treyvon shooting, the cops, including their Chief say, "justified, and come down and see for yourself."
It's almost the same thing, right? You and the police?
So, let's look at the outcome. One person is dead, and even though the cops say it was within the law, you and ten thousand other people are screaming for blood. So even if he was totally justified in his actions, his life is basically ruined.
Now, do you want to re-evaluate your belief that it would be a good idea for tough guys like the gas station beatdown artist to get shot? Because even if the law agrees with you, do you really want to be facing what the shooter in this case is facing? I sure hope not.
Generally, it's better to avoid, deescalate, and run away if you can. No one wins. I carry to avoid dying, but I'm not going to shoot a guy punching another guy in a gas station.
As for the Treyvon situation, we'll just have to wait for the Grand Jury and maybe the trial for answers.
"The original post asked why the guy in the vid beating the other person up couldn't just get shot."
Actually it didn't, genius. It was about backing the attacker down and leaving it up to him what the next step was.
Miguel puts words in people's mouths and I know it's your duty to repeat them verbatim, Sean. Next time, read it for yourself.
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"It's pretty easy to see the commonality. In the gas station video, Rick from SFD sez "pull out a gun and shoot."
Wrong. For the reasons I note below.
Let's clarify something, Sean. There is no evidence that Zimmerman was getting hammered by Trayvon anything like the guy in the video was getting hammered by the aggressor. There are no similarities in these two situation. None.
Look if you want to hold your hands up in a "surrender" position while Meatball pounds the crap out of your head and then try to run out the door, go right ahead. But it sounds like you and the boys at GFZ should be saving yourself some money by investing in a good pair of Asics rather than bullets.
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